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Why do we need the senate & president at all ?
- Implement eVoting & then we can reform them out of existence
annonomus : Undoubtedly there are people who cannot carry much of this burden, myself included, but passing it onto our children is not the answer. If we let the politicians off the hook now, they will pass it onto the shoulders of our children.
Make the big earners take the hit now (as well as fighting to have some of it cancelled anyway) like Noel Thomas Martin said.
3 Do not pass this debt burden to our children .. Deal with it quickly. Take the pain fast and upfront - 2 days ago
Errror111 : We the people of Ireland continually re-elected FF governments and so WE (the people of Ireland collectively) are responsible for the mess.
Certainly not our children.
3 Do not pass this debt burden to our children .. Deal with it quickly. Take the pain fast and upfront - 2 days ago
Turned to personal jibes now have we ?
I'll be glad to deal with any other issues you care to raise, relevant to the topic.
3 We need ELECTRONIC VOTING (safe & secure) so the people can be consulted more frequently at low cost - 3 days ago
As long as we DO NOT have evoting - we must have politicians
????????????????? benefit enough I'd say
3 We need ELECTRONIC VOTING (safe & secure) so the people can be consulted more frequently at low cost - 3 days ago
Ref : "for what benefit"
I couldn't care less about looking progressive. This is about strengthening our democracy, learning from our mistakes, taking this opportunity to correct the ridiculous situation whereby nobody can veto or call to account a government that squanders huge quantities of borrowed money - and all to try and cover-up their own mistakes & failings and protect their cosy cartel & buddies.
I'm for people power, I trust the people en-masse far more than I trust politicians. They're a necessary evil, but we can reduce our dependence on them (and for the sake of our children and grandchildren we should).
There are lots of other proposals on this forum for democratic reform, policies like a RECALL system, proposals like DDI (Direct Democracy Ireland ... I think) suggested for a clause put back into the constitution to allow the electorate petition for a referendum, and other proposals with noble aspirations to re-balance our society & economy toward a fairer distribution of wealth & increased community & society emphasis..
All democratic reforms will be helped by having a safe & secure, low cost method of asking the voters for approval.
I reckon a safe & secure evoting system should be a cornerstone for everyone seeking democratic reform.
3 We need ELECTRONIC VOTING (safe & secure) so the people can be consulted more frequently at low cost - 3 days ago
Ref : "... how do you want to guarantee that the system stores the true votes on those papers ..."
Answer : The paper stores a full human readable ballot AND a barcode (which must match & can be checked)
The voter reads the ballot after its printed and only puts it into the ballot box if he/she is happy with it.
Certainly for a short period we'll all be paranoid and demand that the system is checked and double checked every time its used to prove its working and safe, but in time peoples confidence will grow.
Then to make sure we stay safe & secure, we just run quality checks like any good factory does to ensure its products are meeting their quality standards (they check a sample of them - based on statistical methods).
So, if nobody demands a recount we sample a few hundred or so ballots anyway, at random in each constituency, and check them the hard way making sure everything is ok.
3 We need ELECTRONIC VOTING (safe & secure) so the people can be consulted more frequently at low cost - 3 days ago
Charlie : You seem to be missing the point. It's a dual system.
You can count manually (so you can check the system),
but you can also count by scanning barcodes (and get the benefits)
3 We need ELECTRONIC VOTING (safe & secure) so the people can be consulted more frequently at low cost - 3 days ago
Charlie : How can anyone hack into a paper based system ?
There's no question that eVoting has yet been implemented as a safe system anywhere, it hasn't and there have been bucket loads of mistakes. Get over that. I'm talking about a different system and approach that stores the votes only on paper.
3 We need ELECTRONIC VOTING (safe & secure) so the people can be consulted more frequently at low cost - 3 days ago
Ref : Safe eVoting
I understand everyone's concern. Me too. Its a BIG issue. The System has to be safe.
However, no point pretending it cannot be done, if it really can work is there ?
The senate is supposed to act as a check on the government, but it didn't did it ?
Whats so wrong with the people having the power (and an inexpensive mechanism) to call the government to account on big issues (be our own check on the government - perhaps then no need for the senate) ?
Nobody suggested we should be voting on everything - not me anyway.
A key issue to making a system safe is how we store the votes ...
.. How is a system that stores the votes as ink on paper in a box, any less safe than the
...existing system that stores the votes as ink on paper in a box ?
There's simply no difference - they are exactly the same mechanism - and equally safe.
So there's one huge issue and concern, probably the biggest ever raised in relation to evoting, solved very simply.
No electronic storage and a paper audit trail, verified by the voter.
I don't want to trivialise other issues and concerns, but lets not kid ourselves either and pretend this is impossible
Get real, this isn't rocket science its actually quite simple.
To feel safe about this type of eVoting system You have to look at it as 3 separate steps not just one big system.
Step 1 - Voter records their vote on paper
Step 2 - Paper votes stored in boxes
Step 3 - Paper votes checked & counted (at the count centre)
Now, lets start with Step 2 to begin with 'cos its already been mentioned.
How is a system that stores the votes ONLY ON PAPER any less safe than our existing system ?
We don't need to discuss this, its just a fact, for Step 2 - there's no difference.
Also, if we do not store the votes on the computer in the polling station we have relegated that computers role to being nothing more than an elaborate alternative to the pencil
It's just a tool to help print the vote (just like a pen or pencil is a tool to print votes with as well)
The voter must still check & be happy with the printed ballot before he/she puts it in the ballot box.
So
Step 1 - the computer is a tool to help print the ballot. DOES NOT STORE THE VOTE.
Step 2 - The ballot is stored in boxes
That just leaves the important business of counting, and we have lots & lots of ways of ensuring this is safely done and checked, even to the extent whereby it would be simple for every candidate to demand a recount using their own scanner and their own PC/laptop
It might operate something like this;
For people who feel so inclined, go ahead, count them by hand
For people who want to test out & refine a better system that we can still trust, scan the ballots with a barcode scanner and let a PC count the votes
If needs be let each candidate supply their own scanners, laptops & software as well so that they can check the count for themselves
There are obviously big concerns and big issues and things we need control, but, lets stop living with the legacy of the shambolic evoting shite we were offered before (by the same people who gave us PPARS and lots of money for Delighted & TOuched)
3 We need ELECTRONIC VOTING (safe & secure) so the people can be consulted more frequently at low cost - 4 days ago
Wayne, I'm struggling to belief you think handing our trust over to politicians (or as u like to call them "... the best & brightest ... ") without any recourse to cheaply vote on important decisions they wish to take (like Anglo bailout & Bank Guarantee) is a good idea .... So nothing to learn from our 100+billion euro experience then ?
3 We need ELECTRONIC VOTING (safe & secure) so the people can be consulted more frequently at low cost - 4 days ago
Ciaran : Stop thinking EXPENSIVE REFERENDA
Think safe reliable eVoting as well, so we can be consulted frequently and at low cost.
2 Direct Democracy - 12 days ago
Our national debt has (at least) 2 elements. The scandalous (without our permission) Banking Debt & the ongoing 'living beyond our means' (still 20 billion per year ?) - government overspending.
The banking debt, I would have no problem taking a tough stance on, and agree we should.
Perhaps, any new government should consider a referendum - revoking the actions of the current government over the past few years because they had no mandate for the decisions they took - and anyone who loans money to someone who's been ripping us off can hardly expect us to honour those debts.
The rest of the debt should not, in my opinion, be dis-honoured. We are taking this money and spending it, and we have no justification for asking the lenders to take a hit on that.
Either way, None of this debt should fall to our children, it isn't nonsense, its perfectly good sense. Our mess. Our job to clean it up, and the sooner the better.
3 Do not pass this debt burden to our children .. Deal with it quickly. Take the pain fast and upfront - 13 days ago
I think there is room for ratio's and other mechanisms & actions, if it didn't specifically state "Ten Times" in the title of this I might vote for it.
It is certainly important to reign in on overpaid bankers, politicians and senior civil servants, and closing the wealth gap is important, and urgent
0 No one in a business should be allowed to earn more than ten times the earnings of the lowest paid. - 14 days ago
Equality Dude
Ref : Free - Loader.... Point Taken
Ref : Why more money for more skill ? (more than 10 fold that is)
To encourage people to improve their skills and to aim for higher standards of education & skills, and to allow a lifetime of efforts be well rewarded.
A 10 fold gap is too low, some people gamble years & years of their lives developing new technologies and enhancements, and a 10 fold income growth is not sufficient to reward this sort of dedication.
I would find it harder to argue against a 200 fold gap (cos even after 40 years of struggling, you could still be better off if you eventually succeeded)
We do want to encourage people to work long and hard at difficult problems, and a 10 fold gap is too small for that.
HWE
0 No one in a business should be allowed to earn more than ten times the earnings of the lowest paid. - 14 days ago
Bernard, Your point is disproven by historical fact. People did it previously, and made less of a mess than the current overpaid bunch.
Ref :
"Suggesting that people would still be willing to sacrifice a home life, so they could work 60 or 70 hour weeks, with no real off time, is non sensical. People wouldn't do it."
1 Reduce the wages of TD's - 14 days ago
Bernard, are you really taking this seriously ? Thats reason enough to not vote for you and your platform of like minded candidates. Can you not distinguish between harmless venting of frustration and serious suggestions ?
1 Outlaw Political Parties - 14 days ago
Yes, but what do we replace them (& the senate & president) with ?
One concrete proposal is to let the people vote directly using "Barcode on paper" eVoting (one of the suggestions in this general forum .... see .... "We need ELECTRONIC VOTING (Safe & Secure) ...").
"Barcode on paper" eVoting means the votes cast are NOT stored on discs or in any electronic form, they are stored as printed barcodes (Ink on paper) and cannot be tampered with any more or less than the existing voting system can be. The votes are still on paper. They are still placed in a ballot box. There are no electronic copies to tamper with.
The printed ballots will have to have a human readable vote on it as well, which the voter can read & check, so the ballot papers will automatically form a paper audit trail, and manual re-counts will be possible, as will random sampling and checking.
The votes could be quickly counted, using inexpensive scanners (< €100 for the cheapest when buying just 1) to scan the barcodes (which would store the constituency & polling station info and the voters inputs/choices in a single barcode)
The official vote scanning & tallying software would be important software, and would have to be thoroughly tested and be open to public scrutiny. No problem there, there are plenty of people prepared to write this software - me included - and provide it free of costs, free of copyright & free of intellectual property right restrictions, with full source code available for widespread testing & scrutiny)
In addition thousands of people in Ireland would be capable of checking any ballot because all you have to do is scan the barcodes into excel (or similar) and write simple macro's there to check the results. That is childs play to lots of younger people, so the political parties, independent candidates & special interest groups (Unions, Social groups and other proposers of changes), could write their own counting routines and run their own scans & counts to check the official results afterwards - under supervised conditions of course - where the paper ballots are managed in a safe & secure environment.
The system can run on ordinary PC's, no special equipment needed, because they are merely printing ballots not storing them, so no huge IT storage costs.
They can be school PC's one day and ballot machines the next. Plug in a memory stick and its a ballot machine, take it out and all the balloting capabilities & data are removed.
We'll always need polling booths to ensure people can vote in secret and cannot be bought or coerced into voting a particular way, but it'll still be cheaper, quicker and will strengthen the peoples grip on our own democracy.
With such a system in place where the voting & counting is safe & secure, and fast and in-expensive, the people can be consulted at low cost on many issues and we can eventually reduce significantly the numbers of politicians as well as their wages.
1 Outlaw Political Parties - 14 days ago
Yes reduce their wages, and reduce their numbers, but what do we replace them (& the senate & president) with ?
One concrete proposal is to let the people vote directly using "Barcode on paper" eVoting (one of the suggestions in this general forum .... see .... "We need ELECTRONIC VOTING (Safe & Secure) ...").
"Barcode on paper" eVoting means the votes cast are NOT stored on discs or in any electronic form, they are stored as printed barcodes (Ink on paper) and cannot be tampered with any more or less than the existing voting system can be. The votes are still on paper. They are still placed in a ballot box. There are no electronic copies to tamper with.
The printed ballots will have to have a human readable vote on it as well, which the voter can read & check, so the ballot papers will automatically form a paper audit trail, and manual re-counts will be possible, as will random sampling and checking.
The votes could be quickly counted, using inexpensive scanners (< €100 for the cheapest when buying just 1) to scan the barcodes (which would store the constituency & polling station info and the voters inputs/choices in a single barcode)
The official vote scanning & tallying software would be important software, and would have to be thoroughly tested and be open to public scrutiny. No problem there, there are plenty of people prepared to write this software - me included - and provide it free of costs, free of copyright & free of intellectual property right restrictions, with full source code available for widespread testing & scrutiny)
In addition thousands of people in Ireland would be capable of checking any ballot because all you have to do is scan the barcodes into excel (or similar) and write simple macro's there to check the results. That is childs play to lots of younger people, so the political parties, independent candidates & special interest groups (Unions, Social groups and other proposers of changes), could write their own counting routines and run their own scans & counts to check the official results afterwards - under supervised conditions of course - where the paper ballots are managed in a safe & secure environment.
The system can run on ordinary PC's, no special equipment needed, because they are merely printing ballots not storing them, so no huge IT storage costs.
They can be school PC's one day and ballot machines the next. Plug in a memory stick and its a ballot machine, take it out and all the balloting capabilities & data are removed.
We'll always need polling booths to ensure people can vote in secret and cannot be bought or coerced into voting a particular way, but it'll still be cheaper, quicker and will strengthen the peoples grip on our own democracy.
With such a system in place where the voting & counting is safe & secure, and fast and in-expensive, the people can be consulted at low cost on many issues and we can eventually reduce significantly the numbers of politicians as well as their wages.
1 Reduce the wages of TD's - 14 days ago
We should have done this, but its too late now isn't it ?
0 let the banks sink. They made bad decisions and tax money should not be used to try rectify this - 15 days ago
How would you stop some lazy bugger from doin feck all and still being paid 10% as much as the hardest working most skilled person ?
I have no problem with a self employed person charging as much as they want for their services, and if they want to employ someone on the minimum wage to clean their office, would this mean they have to pay that person 10% of what they earn ?
0 No one in a business should be allowed to earn more than ten times the earnings of the lowest paid. - 15 days ago
Meg, it is possible to produce a safe system that can be (& MUST BE) verifiable with a full paper audit trail.
For example if the system printed bar coded voting slips with your 1,2,3,... on it, these could be placed into a ballot box and counted electonically afterwards by simply scanning the barcode
(No storing on discs or in any electronic form, just on paper that the vorter can read)
As long as the system printed your choices in human readable form as well the votes could be counted by either machine or by people & checked manually, and every one verified.
Lots of other issues also arise, such as problems with printers jamming or running out of paper (could compromise secrecy if someone else had to come over and fix it with a half printed ballot already in the printer)
BUT these too can be overcome.
The system must also be an open-source design, with all the coding available & open to public scrutiny so that it can become widely accepted by the public in general and by industry experts, academics & politicians.
I do have several years experience developing software & systems so this is not just wishful thinking, I know we can produce a safe & secure system, and I'm convinced it can help us reduce our dependence on politicians
How many other issues raised on this forum could we be voting on for real if we had a safe & secure eVoting system - all of them !
How much less would we need overpaid politicians, the senate and a president ?
HWE
3 We need ELECTRONIC VOTING (safe & secure) so the people can be consulted more frequently at low cost - 15 days ago
This may be a noble aspiration but I have no idea what it is you mean ... please explain
0 Create an Eco-Economic Co-Creative 21st Century System 4 Sustainable Optimisation - 17 days ago